you stated your opinon BC, I can't see how that could be taken wrongly.

no problems with any of you really, I'll say sorry for baiting Investor on the Pipe thread..I don't normally revel when having a decent day..just couldn't resist.

see..we can get along fine.

It is interesting to note that Rigmarole, 2.35C has taken exactly the same path as last year prior to his victory in this race, even down to his short price disappointment at Wincanton.

This weekends eructions on this forum has certainly focused on the trainers part in finding winners.

I would like to ask the students of the original examples if there is (are) detailed examination(s) by VDW about trainers or their methods?

JIB,

I think in one of CVDW's horses from "silver lining Letter" CVDW quoted "note the same trainer"

The whole Of CVDW's approach is about trainers methods.

The whole Of CVDW's approach is about trainers methods.

strange it's not been mentioned too much before, I thought it was about consistent class horses.

I've probably got muddled up.

"The whole Of CVDW's approach is about trainers methods."

PKB,

You've certainly put up a surprising reply to my question!

Can you fill it in a wee bit?

I asked the question because I've always thought the vdw approach far too horse-orientated (form/class) and at the same time rather absent/silent about the 'thinking' aspect. Not least when the humans who do the thinking do not behave uniformly, employing diversive methods and tactics.

I wonder how this will be explained.

I'll bet people are queueing up to answer this.

pkboy, ectoo, everyone, can members who have a copy of silver lining, possibly post van der wheils letter thanks

I know I said I wouldn't contibute here for a while... but that was yesterday! : thanks to Ectoo and TC for your comments too.

Trainers and other things

In the Ultimate Wheil of Fortune, a couple of pages are devoted to the following topics (among others):

1. Breeding
2. Making a 3 y.o. list of horses to follow
3. Trainers

Only relatively little information is given, which brings me back to what I suspect to be true. That is the VDW Method as we have come to think of it is just one of the ways he used, but importantly, one that was relativley easy to pass on to newcomers to horse racing (or to thinking about things more thoughtfully anyway).

Phrases often pop up such as "...note should be made of how the trainer places the horse..." etc. And of course, the reason the horse is the class/form horse in the race, is because the trainer has placed it there with the object of winning. It's just that these ones are easier to 'see' imo.

Hope that helps.

BlackCat

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BlackCat,

quote:

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Originally posted by grundy:
pkboy, ectoo, everyone, can members who have a copy of silver lining, possibly post van der wheils letter thanks

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grundy, is this what you want?

just click here

well I've read that and apart from VDW showing he doesn't understand the concept of value betting I cannot see how most of his method is based trainer intent.

In fact I think many here have disagreed with JIB that it isn't an important aspect as far as VDW is concerned.

Why are people in that thread getting excited about the letter by the way?

If that is a cause for excitement then the Compression and Pipe thread should be almost orgasmic.

Yes it is. - about Trainers and their Methods !

VDW constantly refers to watching how horses are placed !!

eg - from the Ultimate Wheil of Fortune .

quote:

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there is exposed form as understood by most, and the less obvious form , which although just as exposed - is not seen by the majority.

Following Trainers will soon aquaint you with this less obvious form .

If the idea of following Trainers appeals, probably the wisest action is to select 3 or 4 yards and study each string . Draw up a list of the best from each yard and realy get to know those particular horses .

Watch how they are placed and you will be suprised how much can be gleaned for future profit.

Selection of Trainers should be done with care and the inclusion of heavy gambling yards undertaken only when you have come to understand their ways.

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There is lots more - but time and time again - he comes back to Trainers - (Something about - the sign on the front of the Bus - writen by the Trainer - but I cant find that "Anyone ??" )

This Thread has been dominated by the "Simple" - "Class/Form Merchants " who cant see beyond - "Counting their Fingers and Toes " and who have been incabable of looking at the fact that VDW suggested that they also used their "Brains" !!

Now that most of them have shown themselves for what they are -"eg Fulham" - then perhaps the Thread can progress to a more intelligent evaluation of a bet !!

Bring on the Clowns !!!

Anyone who has studied VDW seriously, (Rather than those who profess to have, then show their ignorance with crass remarks), would know that he wrote in some length about the importance of the trainer's involvement in 'Racing In my System'.
This was published in early 1993, long after the bulk of his work, and gave a valuable insight into a vital area that remains unconsidered by the vast majority, yet was apparently an open book to VDW.
Many parts of that booklet have been reproduced on this thread, not least a few months ago in an exchange of posts between Epi,Jib, Tc, and myself.
Maybe this will be the next 'moving bandwagon' for Ectoo to claim as his own?

Ectoo,

Think part of the problem is you are looking at trainer trends to find the intent. VDW was/is looking at the horse and then saying look at the trainer's methods to follow what he is trying to do, or what he is likely to do with this horse. The horse is a possible selection for a given race, is this the/a target or a prep race, etc.

I think it is understood by all/most that a horse can't read or write, and the trainer has to make the entries. JIB has mentioned Johnston at Ascot, before he sends a horse there he checks to see if the horse can act on stiff (right-handed) tracks.

In your last post in answer to me you mentioned you had read the VDW letters at the time they came out. I have to ask did you spend any time studying them, or was it just a quick superficial read? There are many things mentioned in them that are not noticed at the first glance. He mentions the need to study the horse as well as the trainer. He even says to think about why a trainer has entered the top weight, something I pointed out when the question was raised after the Cambridgeshire.

Again congratulations on the Pipe performance at Cheltenham. Must admit I only took notice because you added a filter that took the actual horse into consideration. That is because I think the ability of the horse is the major factor. I only backed one of his winners this weekend Marcel, the fact that it was trained by Pipe was a plus, but not the main reason. It was backed because it had proven it's ability in the class and was consistent. Have to admit I didn't think I would be backing it on the morning of the race because of the expected price.

Be Lucky

Thanx johnd - Racing in my System.

p6 - To be a successful punter you need to understand the things that trainers do to bring horses to the boil - Most punters havn't a clue whats going on , but those who know the game cant be fooled so easily. etc

p9 - Frequently I suggested watching how horses were placed - but I believe it fell on deaf ears .

The aquisition of knowledge is gained in varios degrees by numerous methods, but if you want to know where the bus is going, ask the driver !! If he doesn't know , nobody does.



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tc -

who pays the Driver ??

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The problem I am having is this

VDW makes vague references to the trainer and you guys say he has addressed it..no he hasn't..anyone can say..ooooh make a list of stables to follow..is that something wonderful?

Deary me guys you are so easily pleased by VDW but treat me like a lesser mortal or dog shit beneath your feet even though I have actually shown that trainer intent can be pleasing by actually telling which trainer to back and when.

It's all generalised nonsense and old chestnuts from VDW I am afraid.

CAN SOMEONE SHOW ONE THING THAT VDW WROTE THAT IS ACTUALLY NOT WOOLY.

It's really worrying this..the guy spouts a load of old fashioned easy to say stuff and you sit there licking your lips..are you sure you aren't all getting money from selling the books?..I am sure it's the only explanation..either that or you are taking the piss or a bit simple.

The more I see your reactions to drivel the more I am sure you are getting money from the stuff..something doesn't add up here.

no one makes any money from VDW selections..they are shit scared to post selections as they know they won't be profitable..but the guy is the 2nd coming.

come on guys this is such bullshit.

show some profit or admit you get commision on the books.

Not Wooly ?? - re Trainers ?

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something I should point out having advised how trainers place their charges. Remember the bus driver ? Well he was told where to go in the first place. Trainers are also under instructions. Someowners leave all decicisions up to him , while others will talk things over and perhaps go along with his advice most of the time.

They are still the owners horses and they pay the bills, so if they want their horses at a particular meeting or running in bigger races to satisfy their ego , the trainer must do as he is told. Fortunatly because its an expensive game anyway, owners with any sense use it - If they dont like what's happening , they can always change yards.

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No - I am not a VDWr - but there is not much written on the subject of horse racing to give a "Newby" some "fundamentals" to work from, and the "little books" have so far been a pretty decent source of ideas.

Perhaps you can give me a better "Starting Point" - if you can, then I shall certainly investigate it.

How do you decide which Trainer to back, and when? - I tend to use "Perpetual Publications" - "Black Book" - have you a better source ??

I dont get commision from them either - altough I do think that Tony Evans - may actualy be VDW - still making money fron the bandwagon

What do we do when we see the bus towing the bandwagon is driven by Pieter Gehm?

Ask the station-master to call a cab and then do a runner, I guess.

no doubt - Investor will give us some advice after the event

that quote is superb TC

what a load of drivel indeed