PK,

I would have though I have raised more than enough to start a discussion, if that's what you want. Your answer seems to be I'm right your wrong end of discussion. However I will try again.

There is little doubt VDW is/was talking about a downturn in form between Shimshek's last 2 races. Why then bring in a race that happened in the season before?

I asked why you think Roushayd wasn't the c/form horse at EPSOM, leaving s/f out of the equation? I have said I'm more than happy Roushayd was the class/form horse for the ONC, using the s/f improvement. Without it I wouldn't have been happy to take the improvement based on the form of an eased horse at the back of the field. I also think it takes a large leap of faith to see what he achieved in the last 2f.

I asked why you think there is an apparent contradiction in VDW pointing out the importance of class when talking about Shimshek in the Newbury race. When he has said Shimshek lacks class as a horse, and eliminated a horse with a better a/rating because it lacked class.

I'm more than happy to discuss anything about VDW, but don't ask me to just except it because you think it is so. I would also like your reasons for saying s/f are the easy way out, again it seems that is only because you don't use them. How are they any easier than this a/rating? I don't take them at face value, and use them as a guide, the same way as the a/rating is used. You may think they are rubbish (but you didn't say that) however VDW placed a lot of faith in them, or he wouldn't have used them in so many ways.

Be Lucky

Well done Mtoto!

Mtoto,

Determined asked a question about the apparent form Of Shimshek, to which I gave a generous reply which would, in my view, help him.

TRUE TO FORM, you hijack my reply and ask a myriad of questions which you require spelling out in Gory detail. I dont much care to enter into the problems of your interpretations. If you dont see the relevence or feel the need to investigate the race, end of discussion.

SIMPLE REALLY.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pkboy,

I see someone has had a bad day

pkboy

do you now intend - to take over the position of "Resident Clown" ?? - from - Barney ?

it is begining to look like it !!

Post something "PositivE" !!!!!!!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tuppenycat,

How far back for form or class?

Pkboy said:

""Mtoto,

Determined asked a question about the apparent form Of Shimshek, to which I gave a generous reply which would, in my view, help him.

TRUE TO FORM, you hijack my reply and ask a myriad of questions which you require spelling out in Gory detail.""


Hi pkboy,

Am I right to assume that you can weigh up the true form of contributors far quicker than we can understand the ins and outs of these old horses - Shimshag et al- ( about which I admit I know nothing)?

Trawling back thru the discussions of VDW on Gummy here, I see reference to Mtoto, Swish,JIB, Barney ( who's Barney?) and many more, from years back.

I see you have 178 posts to Mtoto's 1010.

Are we supposed to divide these figures by the number of winning oneupmanship scores or something, in order to get the true class of contribution?

Btw, I'm just an interested learner who knows f a about VDW really.
However, I'm pretty sure that if I could use " the knowledge" to make a decent profit, I would try supply Grundy with the figures he's looking for.

Maybe that wouldn't help the booksellers enough.
I'm fkd if I know. I guess taboo is taboo.

Tuppenycat,

My understanding of open forums is that we can all join in at any time so you certainly do not need an invite to join in on VDW matters.

One thing I will say though is that to understand VDW ( I am miles off at present ) one must be prepared to spend hours doing research into the old examples and when one has done this I can understand those individuals been reluctant to spell it all out.

If you had spent 100's of man hours studying a subject and found an edge to your betting would you be so quick to tell everyone ?

seanrau -

Just roll up your - "Left Trouser Leg" -


and "Repeat after Me"" -- The "Mantra" ------


VDW - VDW - VDW- VDW - ----



IS THE "GOD" !!!!

SHIMSHEK

MTOTO - I like you thought VDW's comments on Shimshek referred to his 2 x runs in the 88 season but it looks as though we may just have to consider the running of other runners from the 87 season to establish `S` in form-ness for race no' 666 in the 1988 season.

PKBOY - I am only in the early stages of evaluating the Prix Royal Oak and having set out the result as VDW did for the Roushayd evaluation my first impressions are that Sergeyevich should have fared much better here.

With that in mind, I have looked again at Shimshek's first 2 x runs in 88 and it may well be that his first run was a good one for a first run of the season when conceding weight.

Was the secind run a better run ? The bare class rating suggests it was but when considering the `form` of the winner I am now not so sure ?

Hi Mate -

quote:

---

Determined
Member

posted December 19, 2004 08:30 PM
Tuppenycat,

My understanding of open forums is that we can all join in at any time so you certainly do not need an invite to join in on VDW matters.

---

course not - thats why me and a few others asked Gummy to open the thread up again to those interested in VDW !!!!!!

I/we/they - tho -

reserve the right to -

BOLLOCK - MAKE FUN off - LAUGH AT - TAKE the PISS OUT OFF -

those who are not prepared to make - use full contributions to the Thread !!!

If you are so - SMALL MINDED - as to not "SHARE" - your "Knowledge" - then _ "F*CK" you -

Why the Hell are you posting here - If not to -

"Inflate your own Bloody Ego" ???????

Grundy,

Don't know if this is any help, the a/ratings for the 3 races before the ONC. They are as close as I can get without the form books. It would be interesting if someone could fill in the s/f using Split Second from the Raceform form book. Can't help with the race suggested by PK as again I don't have that book. Perhaps Determined would comment if he thinks it is of any relevance.

First Division ------ 36
Vouchsafe --------- 29
Roushayd ---------- 231
Professional Girl - 71
Greenhills Joy -----32
C.Souris -------------34
R.Ambition ----------16
D.Special-------------18


Ibn Bey --------------- 316
Roushayd ----------- 231
A.Hounak ------------ 46
M.Cunningham -----55
Shimshek ----------- 19
C.Souris -------------- 34
G.Isle --------------------0
M.Burn -----------------28
O.Eliaso ---------------17

Roushayd -------------231
Billet -------------------- 43
Hauwmal ---------------45
Failiq -------------------- 48
F.Preacher --------------0
Island Set --------------33
E.Blue -------------------31
R.Dancer -----------------9
Vouchsafe --------------29

PK,

You make it very hard to have a discussion. I give my opinion and it's all wrong in your eyes. I ask questions and that's wrong. How do you start your discussions? Unless I'm expected to believe your opinions without question where do we go from here? I have to ask why the crack about BL if you didn't want a response?

I don't remember asking you for the form of that race. I'm not asking you to spell anything out, and why should a simple answer need to be gory details? It only gets gory when one is struggling to answer, otherwise it is a polite exchange of ideas.

Be Lucky

Determined,

Only too happy to help.

Blackcat.

note the start of the abuse and apply my previous comments.

Tuppenycat,

With respect, leave it alone !

Mtoto -
Thanx !!

Pkboy - great !

I await your contribution ! - Then I shall publish an "Apology"

Determined


Leave what alone ???

What contribution have you made to this Thread ?????

--

See Mtoto's responce to a question -

and ask yourself -

who - "better" deserves "Respect" ??????

Grundy,

It won't be tonight but I'll put up the ability ratings for the Royal Oak asap.

Mtoto,

I'll also post up any speed figures you want at some point.

Johnd,

I know we corresponded via e mail on a couple of occasions many moons ago but I have lost your address.

Pkboy,

Thanks.

Determined,

No problem, Merry Christmas and a prosperous new year.

PKB,

There arent any psychopaths on this thread just as there is no abuse without provocation. If you sow the wind dont complain when you have to reap the whirlwind.

Why tell someone they are barking up the wrong tree if you are not prepared to show them the correct trunk? Surely you have lost a first class opportunity to keep quiet? Anyone who is undertaking a serious approach to these matters can only find your attitude irritating.

Dt,

Your idea that someone who has worked hard to discover something wont want to give up his 'edge' hardly explains what the hell he is doing chipping in on a public forum in the first place.

The principal function of this forum is not to make you or anyone else feel better the aim here is to provide mutual assistance. Taunting people that they are wrong but without explaining how is pernicious conduct whatever its motivation.

Seanrua,
Glad you have found my advise useful.
Thanks.