PK

You have lost me
Or you have misunderstood the question

Whats going on,I'm still looking for the missing link,now I can't find the VDW threads there all over the place,I think it will be easier to find the missing link,than the VDW threads,time for a couple of pints definitely,if I can find my way out of here.

I was lucky enough to be watchman for a pro-running school for many years, in fact im asked to hold watch in the major pro-trials before the money changes hands even today.

Anyway in my time we`ve dealt with all sorts of runners ability wise over varying distances.

We once had an 800m runner who showed in his first few trials that he was a definate future winner of the New Year Half mile at Powderhall given his condition at the time.

Some of our Scots members will know how prestigious this meeting is.

We as a school did not pitch him into top company in his early races, we brought him along raising him gradually through the ranks holding as we went.

In effect by the time we were ready to let him run on his merits he could have won off the back mark but he was in fact racing from a mark of 45 meters.

Im not sure if racehorse trainers use similar methods or are able to spot talent/ability also at such an early stage?.

Walter,

Its mostly a back door trade from the breeding houses they can judge the will to win from escapades of the yearling foals when they cavort and run around the paddocks, THEY CAN SEE WHICH LIKES TO GET ITS HEAD IN FRONT. Alledgedly the pin hookers spend a disproportionate amount of time leaning on the fences of the good studs paddocks watching them play and the like. Ability is identifiable so early, but not the class in which that ability will be displayed. They only find that out when they go into training for races as a two year old.

Pipedreamer,

Click on the individuals name who's posts you are interested in and all their recent posts will/should appear in a list format

Id like to ask Luca at what point did he realise that Commanche Run was a tool?.

Was he a horse that showed ability to Luca early on or did he surprise his trainer & improve dramatically throughout his career?.
Taking into consideration how the trainer placed his better charges early on at the time i.e Carlisle Maidens spring to mind lol.

A common practise is to start the yearlings on the training cycle, and from his expert eye the trainer grades the yearlings into three or four groups. He is very cautious to not "overface a horse" even in training. when all the animals ar fit(nothing to do with ability) the trainer will target a particular meeting and send in some of the moderate/mediocre horses against the other yards. he will then have a rough guide to the potential of all the two year old horses under his care. He will know pretty quick how his compare against each other, but not how they compare against the generation until the testers have been sent out.

That is a well thought out piece imho pkboy.
One point id like to ask though if i may.

Observe the gallop returns, often a certain horse has pulled clear from one or more of his or her rivals.

If no horses are being overfaced at home, especially at 2 yrs how does this happen?.

Handicaps are for horses that aren't good enough to win level weight races.

Of course they are? Horses like Azertyuiop, Rooster Booster, and Iris's Gift wouldn't be seen dead in them, (Not to mention such poor horses as Arkle, Pilsudski, Halling, and so many, many, more).

You don't need to know much to understand the basics of the class structure in racing,

And, apparently, even less to set yourself up as an expert!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: johnd,

Or perhaps even, when you have a group horse that isnt good enough to win a handicap, you can have a quite word with someone at the course you prefer, ask them to set up a nice little conditions race over the optimum trip for your horse, at the right time of the year when the ground will be OK and then run in that.

And then still announce its the greatest horse to walk the planet.

Walter,

By "overfaced" I didnt mean in the quantity and quality of work put into them, more that a moderate horse should not be pitched continually against a horse or horses with more ability, this will soon break his spirit.

In any event, the work riders are under far, far, far, stricter orders than any racecourse Jockey will ever get, and woe betide them if they turn training into a race, I have heard of jockeys who can ride out a cracking finish with one hand and one leg scrubbing away, ON THE BLIND SIDE OF COURSE!

JohnD

you don't understand very much, the more you post the more ridiculous it gets.

my level is that of the average horse racing follower..that puts you well below average by some way..I never said I know much..just that you know little.

Your example of the horses listed shows ignorance again.

I didn't say that top horses don't sometimes win handicaps..I was talking about the class structure in racing. Something you have chosen to decide you know a lot about by saying I am wrong about it.

IN your world the Grand National winner is THE best NH horse..it must be because it has the highest £ value..therefore the horse that wins that race is in your opinion the best horse of the season.

Think you might just be wrong.

Ectoo

Forgive me, but:

Handicaps are for horses that aren't good enough to win level weight races.

and

I didn't say that top horses don't sometimes win handicaps

seems to be a direct contradiction!

I would also like to express my regret for trying to make a point on a logical and constructive basis, as the only language you seem to understand is where you berate and attempt to belittle anyone who disagrees with you, all the while peppering your posts with alleged statements that are nowhere near that which was originally posted.
However, as you obviously not even learned how to conduct a sensible discussion, I will leave you to stew in your own juice.
By all means continue your attacks on me, I can just laugh at you, but there are more sensitive people amongst this group, and I will not see them driven away by your moronic attitude.
Either post sensibly, or piss off!

don't start this shit

.you don't tell me what to post..who do you think you are?..lol

nobody tells me what to say..least of all a know little like you.

this is a public message board..if you add up the usefull posts i make and then add your own up..ask yourself why i should be policed by someone like you

I'd leave it now and go and bother someone else.

you don't like me..and i won't tolerate you..seems like a fair carry on to me

lets leave it it that..you keep having a go..and I'll come back tenfold.

If I am wrong with what I post then GUMMY will tell me or ban me ..NOT YOU

telling someone to "piss off" should be a red card if we are talking offensive postings...don't be posting like that towards me

Oh shit !

Is this another TC/Investor scenario

Come on lads - I "Listen" to you both ! - then - "sift" the info !!

Makes for "Good Reading" tho

A rather simplistic view to suppose that the class of the race can be judged by the horses that ran in it? There are hundreds of races every season to disprove such thinking.

JohnD,

Interesting statement. As there are hundreds of these races it shouldn't be any hardship to point a few out. However are these the type of races VDW would have been interested in?

While I don't agree with Ectoo's views on VDW I have to say I don't think his replies have been any more abrasive than many of yours.

I have to say when postings like yours go up that just refuse to admit the obvious flaw in this a/rating it isn't surprising that VDW is held up to ridicule.

If you (or anyone) really believe this rating works, explain and show some examples. That is without throwing higher rated horses out as none form horses, to make it work.

Be Lucky

Quote - Quote !!!

quote:
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A horse that wins a valuable B hcp is probably good enough to win a smaller Gp3 event but the prizemoney for these starts at a lousy 12k, whereas big hcps start at 50k.

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tc - sez !

--

Quote !!


"I have always said - this totaly F**CKS up the "ABILITY" Rating idea -

VDW did say that this had to be "Correctly" applied and - I maintain that - you can't cross the "Divide" between the two !!

You cannot compare - Hcap Prize Money - With Stakes Money !! "

Mtoto
I have railed against the religous adherence to a/r since my early days on this forum, as a quick scan of my posts would prove.
However, as with s/f, that is much different to seeing them as worthless. Only the institutionally blind would not see that that higher value races attract better horses(And often in better form), be they handicaps or pattern races.
As for abrasive replies, I normally reserve them for those that would harm this forum, rather than those who disagree with my point of view,as you, of all people, should know.
Perhaps you would care to consider the percentage of such replies in my posts, and compare them with your own and ectoo's.

I normally reserve them for those that would harm this forum

how is putting solid argument against a flawed thinking harming the forum then JohnD?

Do you believe that the national winner is the best NH horse each year?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ectoo,