If it was Mister sweets then it looks a bit iffy for a VDW deciple to bet on
Low grade race E
And look at all that nasty extra weight he has to carry from his last race

Interestingly I commented to another member a while since about the race that Mister Sweets Ran in LTO

2 horses have since run from that race Mister Sweets Today and James Stark Who won on Wednesday

Pity I didnt back any of them

National Hunt Courses

Group 1

Aintree
Ascot
Ayr
Cheltenham
Doncaster
Haydock
Kempton
Newbury
Newcastle
Sandown

Group 2

Chepstow
Fontwell
Lingfield
Newton Abbot
Wetherby

Group 3

Catterick
Folkstone
Huntingdon
Leicester
Market Rasen
Nottingham
Plumpton
Stratford
Uttoxeter
Warwick
Wincanton
Worcester

Group 4

Bangor
Carlisle
Cartmel
Exeter
Fakenham
Hereford
Hexham
Kelso
Ludlow
Musselburgh
Perth
Sedgfield
Southwell
Taunton
Towcester

Mtoto
once certain parts of the puzzle are found,The same horses will be selected,I'm not going to go all silly,But i believe it was lee who said You have got to put conventional form reading to bed,And he was right,once you find what your'e looking for and you will eventually,It will all seem a lot clearer.

Boozer
i remember a good while back now,Guest and lee both selected a horse by the name of Nosam which was in a low grade e as you put it,But does that neccesarily mean the horse in question is a low grade e runner.

I aint knocking it
I am all for it

Seems to be a bit of a departure from The most valuable race on the card thats all

investor,guest,fulham,mtoto,statajack,boozer, could you explain, conventional form/ unconventional form,i know this comes down to race expierance, knowledge, how can you move away from what van der wheil stated as the majority see?..thanks.

[This message was edited by grundy on March 29, 2003 at 12:02 AM.]

MUCH OF A MUCHNESS
Firstly I have a jest at people for a crack. I want to see if they can have a laugh like myself and others. THERE IS NO MALICE INTENDED.
Secondly I had the balls to name a lot of winners on the board, like many others. Fulham is above this apparently.
The most sparkling winners I ever got on the board were:
WHATS UP BOYS 14-1
DUNNINGTON BILL 14-1
OCCOLD 12-1
TYNDARIUS 25-1
I asked Guest to look at TYNDARIUS and offer his opinion. He didn't have one. Well why not? I found all these winners using my interpretation of VDW. Also, if you ever look at the first page of this thread you will discover that I said a lot about lower class races. Have you any opinion on them then? Or would you rather take the approach that my interpretation is wrong? Go on let's have it!
I have offered my opinion many times on other races. I got SMIRK at 12-1 a while back although I must admit I had to back 3 to get it.
Don't you see that it is slightly possible that whilst Guest gives a few favs in the main (although he did create a book that found a 20-1 at one time) and FULHAM names JACK, that it annoys me?
I have offered far more on this board in the way of finding winners than you have ever done, or FULHAM or GUEST for that matter.
So don't talk to me in such a way without knowing what has gone beforehand.


Guest
All the above refers to you as well.
Yes I did make a few bob for myself and others in the last year and mine and my son's circumstances dramatically.
I now have broad band and cable TV so I can watch all the races live (except the 10 courses that aren't televised, in which case my hand sometimes shakes holding the phone for commentary!).
Hope all that explains myself a little more.
Cheers
Swish

DUNNINGTON BILL should read DUNSTON BILL
Cheers
Swish

CROCK
I remember that JIMMY called you "CROCK OF SHIT"

He has his own reasons for that I am sure, but I never did.
I missed you off in my last posting. Not sure if I didn't take you seriously or what.
You must forgive me.
I can't remember which big winners you named either.
Kindly remind me.
Cheers
Swish

I am limitef to a hand-heldf at the moment,so this will be short.
When I say that you have missed something in SIAO, you have, but more impportantly you have added a grea deal tha is not there, likewise with Roushayd. Doing it my way, that is not necessary, it is all there, EXACTLY AS HE SaID IT WAS!
A few specifics that call for an answer;
VDW said his approach was CONSISTENT, why do you see it a 5 or more different methods.
VDW said we should all have the sa/f me horses, why does that not happrn with the c/f approach.
VDW selected 3 for the Cheltenham festival, you selected 13, why?
Your interpretation is complex, VDW said 'you will wonder how on earth you could miss it', which one of you is wrong?
I asked howw the c/f method made Desert Orchid and Quest For Fame fit, no one can answer,
You also imply that I will not answer questions, yet I have gone into some detail on how VDW read form ( Adiemus, Petronisi, and many more) without revealing everything; I have also explained the 'best form ' approach ( My interpretation of the class/form approach) and applied it to a full card at Cheltenham' which you, yourself, checked. I also answered, in some detail, the points raised by Crock.
Because my understanding of the method is simple and logical, ( Such heresy!), my answers will remain honest, consistent, and straightforward, without actually spelling it all out. I am also confident enough in my ability to ' think for myself', that I will not obfuscate, or refuse to answer points raised.
You seem to think that those who do not agree with your interpretation do not undesrtand it, a 'thinking person' can draw a clear definiton between questioning amd understanding.

Johnd
I will say the same to you as i did to mtoto,Once you find what you want,Or maybe you have but not how vdw wanted you to see it,You will be Looking at the same selection process,Or evaluation. Guest is 100% genuine i just hope that when individuals stumble across the same thing i have, They have the decency to acknowledge what Has been conveyed,In one way or another by Guest

You are right Swish, I haven't named any big price winners on here, in fact I don't think I've got involved in any pre race discussions on this board. Just maybe, that is because I have no inclination to promote myself in order to solicit money from fellow board members.

Swish

This will be my last post on this subject because quite frankly spats like this bore me.

You claim to have done a lot of work of VDW's methods you claim to have spent hours researching, you have also been given a lot of help by another (Mtoto) well what is the difference between you and Fulham?

Fulham is one of the most dedicated and hard working people I have ever been in contact with he has spent hours and hours with research trying to solve VDW's methods and believe me when I say he is now reaping the rewards. He has also been given help, not directly but by studying Guests posts and working them out for himself.

My argument with you Swish is when your attacks get personal. You claim to be having a laugh, well I dont see it that way, to me it shows a lack of respect. Personal attacks on a persons character are not on, especially as you say when you dont know the person, I notice in your post you didnt like it much did you?

By all acounts you have BOTH worked hard to get to where you are now so should there be mutual respect and maybe a bit of common courtesy?

Post like your recent ones serve nothing but to get peoples backs up, the my dad is bigger than your dad scenarios should be left in the playground.

Fulham has always stated that he will not post up his selections before the off so that is HIS choice and not yours to make, but what Fulham has done is to try and help those who are interested in VDW, maybe not the way you see it but again that is HIS choice. He always at least tries to offer an answer when asked a question, maybe not the answer people want to hear but always as honestly as he can and that says a lot to me.

I have gained a lot from this board too. Guests posts and others have helped me to gain a much better understanding of VDW's methods and for that I am grateful. So in return I have given a nice little system away on the systems thread to say thank you in my own way.

Take this post how you want Swish, I have never had a problem with you before but personal attacks will not be tolerated. This will be my last post on the subject.

M.o.M

Swish - Whatever your own personal circumstances, it doesn't excuse your erratic behaviour on this board. What it does show to me though is dodgy temperament not exactly useful for long term succesfull punting.

There is very little chance VDW would have bet in the race Tyndarius won at 25/1 let alone back it. No form for a long time, though dropped in class from race in Ireland. The highlighting of this race just goes to show how some only took the most basic facts from the VDW articles.

Highlighting some big prices you backed in the past is of no consequence really. I know a local "punter" who often finds a big priced winner on a weekend, but he is potless.

I only posted selections to highlight examples for those interested to look at. I still maintain that one has to check out either all or most of the selections VDW gave, something some don't want to do especially if they think they have the answers already.

Which leads me to JohnD's post. yes, I do think people in the main are not understanding everything I am implying in some of my posts. Perhaps I am trying to be too cautious or clever, but I am not going to be too specific as I have said so often before.

VDWs methods were all based on the same approach to class and form, but with some methods being closer than others. For instance the consistency approach is an extension to the Roushayd approach in a lot of respects. The Roushayd approach though was to demonstrate what VDW regards as worthwhile form.

Yes, I do think VDW wrote all that was there to see, but often he was unspecific leaving bits for us to complete. He even SAID this after the SIAO article, so do you not believe him in some articles but take his text at face value in others?

To address your questions on Desert Orchid and Quest For Fame, I'd like to point out that in DOs case he clearly said a book was the answer not a clear cut class/form selection. The class/form horse was Forgive N Forget, but as VDW clearly indicated his last 3 wins were not impressive form. He had won a 6 runner and two 3 runner races beating the same horse Cybrandian on all 3 runs. All his wins had come the other way round on very different tracks to Kempton. VDW said the "BASIS for this method is improvement in higher class determined by speed figure and then being dropped in class to collect." He didn't say all you need is improvement in higher class,etc. He gives another subtle clue by referring to the 2 Haydock runs as "similiar class 3 runner chases".

2nd on class/form was Borlands Cross closely followed by Desert Orchid, who was stepping up to 3m and up in class though had won beyond the minimum at Ascot.

So whilst the Desert Orchid articles both in Systematic Betting and Winning Ways To Bet are very informative pieces, again so much has been missed or misunderstood. DO was not the class/form horse at Kempton. There are ocassion though when a small group of contenders are virtually certain to provide the winner and a book can be made. I demonstrated my own view on this several times last year including a very succesfull few days at Newmarket.

Quest For Fame is solved by the same approach I use for determining class and form. In relation I would like to point out that Mtotos answer as to what he terms every horse in a race is different to mine and I believe VDWs. There are more than the number of runners.

Guest
i Personally would love to look at the old examples,But as you know Trying to get hold of the form books is like trying to find rocking horse s...

Just in case you missed them, I will repeeat some of the questions.
13 bets at Cheltenham, do you honestly think that this is a true reflection of VDW's method?
VDW wrote that Desert Orchid was there as more a less a certainty in 3 out of 9 races, no one has yet showmn how this fits with the c/f approach.
We should all have the same horse? Even the ,most diligent practioners of your method cannot agree, sometimes even after tthe race.
Maybe it is bccause some pepople CAN think for themselves, that they will not have your interpretation.

Johnd
Even if vdw himself popped up and agred with Guest,You would still pick fault,I'm not for one minute suggesting what you do is wrong you obviously make it pay and i wish you the best.But believe me one day you may see it from a different perspective,I hope that day comes because i would like to see you eat a bit of humble pie.I have still got some work to do before i start putting money down but when that money does start going down i know who's selections the bets will mirror,And i can think for myself.

JohnD - I placed 10 bets at Cheltenham of which 5 won. A book counts as one bet in my accounts.
I did say quite clearly at the time that I tend to make more bets than VDW would, but he also said he left over 80% of horses he thought should win. He didn't say that the 80% all lost.

I will show you how DO fits as the class/form horse when VDW said it was more or less a certainty later. I will have to be careful what I say though so whether you make sense of it or not is anybodys guess.

I will say this though, I could quote plenty of times when your remarks about a race fit only in with conventional form study that we her spouted on tv and in the papers almost everyday. Most of which is based on opinion, not facts.

M.O.M
Thanks a lot for putting the lists up,I'm pretty sure lingfield would now be elevated due to the quality of the surface,Which seems to be attracting better class animals.

GUEST,
I have recently been studying the Roushayd approach, one I have read before many times, but this time bearing in mind some of the points you have made.
I now believe I know where your coming from having finally really read what was there.
I believe that this was really an insight into form reading coupled with class.
He says many things in this article in greater detail than others.
If its any consolation its taken a long time for the penny to drop and I daresay it probably would have taken longer only for the writings of people like yourself urging others to READ WHAT WAS THERE.
Well I have and I thank you and others who have helped a great deal.
I believe many have in their own way found the link they need to make for profitable betting and wish everyone well for the future.
I do wish though that people would stop slagging other members off and all be grateful to the man who put them in the moneymaking position they now find themselves in, VDW.
See you soon, Mike.