I know everyone has there own method of evaluating VDW,but after reading a lot of the posts here and on the original VDW site,it is a rarity to ever read one of the most important things he ever wrote."What a horse does in the final two furlongs of a race"It always seems to me that peeps try to rely on speed or weight ratings or class drops, but the successes I have had is to look back the form of horses in races and noting which of them showed a turn of foot at the end-winning or not-then applied the class ratings,speed, weight,class of last run ect-I worked back the way.Most of the winners he wrote about were up with the pace or tracking the leaders when going on to win,quickening up at the end,and this to my mind is what he looked for in horses.Last year for instance I had a select group of horses which I knew had this attribute and after watching them, and reading about them knew when to bet and when not to bet.The best example last year was Nayyir on whom I won a right few quid especially the group 2 at Newmarket(I got 8/1).
I am not preaching to you guys ,just trying to let you see some of my light which I gleaned from the great mans readings.I like to watch horses who lead from the front as well and love to watch the jockeys hands on the horses behind it, it is very satisfying hearing the excuses connections put up when beaten by some front runners when the jockeys hands say it all-they just couldent keep up.
When Intersky Falcon was beaten in a Nov H'cap hurdle in the race before he strode away in the Cordon Blue Hurdle at Aintree last year it was over 2.5 miles but after one mile he had the field strung out like a washing line and the hands gave it away.Last year in the Derby Moon Ballad did the same to the rest of them and just could not last home and the only race where he had his conditions were in the last one at Nad Al Sheba where 11/4 was the gift of the season.Any horse in my opinion who can string out a field(even losers)or can quicken past others have an important trait worth keeping on your side.Ok I have said my piece and at the end of the day as long as you win £££'s that is the main thing.Keep on betting winners chaps.

Hi Biotechnology and others,
My first post as a new member and your views re the last 2 furlongs in a race are very interesting. I have done the due diligence of obtaining all the old raceform form books back to early 1970,s and investigated VDW,s races and believe I have a good knowledge of the method.The main problem with it is the time it takes and the frustration of spending several hours over a race to find there is no selection. So I have gone down some side alleys as VDW would say and tried to retain aspects of the method whilst looking to shorten the time it takes. The last 2 furlongs of a race is an interesting area to look at. Jack Ramsden who is Linda Ramsdens husband is a well known shrewd gambler and his method of judging a horses class and prospects was to time it over the last furlong. He admitted this when the court case with K.Fallon was ongoing. He was reported as saying that he knew he had a good horse if it could run the last furlong in a certain time. he actually gave the time but for the life of me I cant find the newspaper cutting which I kept, anybody here got it ?.
I have also used Stewart Simpsons ideas from Always Back winners re quickening horses. Nick Mordin has also put forward a means of judging the class of a horse by the number of challenges a horse fights off in the last 2 furlongs. An American author Al Illich gives an interesting definition of what a class horse is that I have not seen mentioned before. His contention is that a class horse can turn on a tremendous spurt of speed at any stage of a race, during the early part, halfway or towards the finish. It is the ability to turn on high speed when needed that makes for a difference in class among racehorses. Theres a fair bit more in this theory of his and incidentally his book is a great read with some novel ideas in it. My hope in joining a group such as this is to learn and exchange ideas to mutual profit.

Biot
Don't for one minute think that you have come to a thread that doesn't have problems,Because you most certainly have,When you get certain individuals that have either no knowledge,or don't even want to know the ins and outs of a method that is quite brilliant if one takes the time to study it,you must keep an open mind and not be influenced by morons.

I will keep my eyes open for any possible bets but it is all in the formbook e.g tracked leaders,headway 3f out,joined ldrs 1.1/2f,quickened to lead/ran on well ect.Or watch the races ATR is on all the time -if you have Sky or cable then tape it when at work and analyse the results.Earning money through work or winnings is never easy.If you want a bonus at work-work harder-if you want more winners-the same goes.I am no messiah,but I have read "The Golden Years" so many times I could almost recite it word for word,squinting through it is no good.
I was let in on a secret some years ago by the Author of the highly acclaimed ProPunter,(Horseracing Software)David Atherton who told me he had written the program directly from VDW's teachings.Now the program has been tinkered with a bit ,and in my opinion isnt as good as it was(I still use my old Amiga to interpret the form).If any of you have one of these older computers I can assure you that it is regarded by software industry insiders the best winner finder you can buy.The program will also run on machines with O/S that will also run on IBM DOS.
Mr Atherton still has some older copies lying about,which he will sell I'm sure.I have had many great days with ProPunter with too many good priced winners to name.I have no relation of any type to the Gentleman in question,I am only giving some helpful advice to fellow VDW Disciples

John in Brasil
I only look at the better class races.I prefer races over 7f but will bet in Group 1,2,3 races over sprints if a potential winner can be found in the field.I use the Racing Post website to see lifetime form generally concentrating my attention on the first 6 in the betting and look too see the perfomances on similiar going,not neccesarily same class.
I would never have bet Nayyir at Epsom last year if I had but my reasoning was it had too much foot not to be able to win a weak group 2 as anyone who seen the way he disposed of his rivals in the Beverley H'cap could see.G.Butler is a fine trainer going all the way as his recent aquisitions from Prince Abdulla confirms also has Beauchamp Pilot another really good un with a turn of foot whom I have also profited from.I make lists of these horses and analyse races for them.

BT/JiB

I think Max used to play this angle or one similar, he gave me a 20/1 winner and plenty of others too from horses he`d noted then told all of us to back whenever they next ran regardless of any other factors.

BT, in case you haven`t back read to Max yet, he was one of the boards undisputed successful pro`s.

111
.

Oh, I nearly forgot, he was a really nice guy too, he`s currently taking a break and we all look forward to his return, what he doesn`t know about this game you could write on the back of a stamp.

111,

I'll second your posts about Max.A very generous guy,with undoubted ability and absolute confidence in his ability.

Biotechnology welcome, have you ever considered dividing prizemoney by starts as opposed to wins in group or graded races i have it on good authority it works really well .

Walter Pigeon
I am always open to any positive suggestions so I will experiment with past results with your Idea.By the way can I ask you on which authority you speak of.I look forward to your next post.Cheers

Robert
What an interesting and inteligent posting you have put up, Im sorry for not responding sooner to your post.Its peeps like yourself who are obviously well informed and race educated that make forums like this one to enjoy.I am aware of the majority of the info you have divulged to us but I have never heard of Al Illich and will make the appropriate web searches to read more about his theory.Thanks

Just an afterthought
Are any of you aware of ProPunter?
One day in 1997 I analysed 5 of the six races at Epsom on Derby day and had 1st Ya Malak-13/2
1st Champagne Prince 15/2 3rd Romanov 33/1(e/w)
3rd Hoh warrior(e/w)8/1 in my e/w yankee.Along with various singles and doubles and a 6 horse e/w roll up I collected over £3500 for a stake of £50, my best days racing ever, and when you win like that you never forget the details.
It was all due to the aforementioned program and on the Sunday I analysed the same 5 races manually using the method and got the same results.Does anyone on this forum have the older ProPunter program?I have my own Roofing Business so if Im working on a Saturday I usually use it between the months of June till September(best results)as it is quicker.

quote:

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Originally posted by biotechnology:
....Does anyone on this forum have the older ProPunter program?....

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is that the one on a floppy that runs on a ATARI STFM?

ChIMP

Imp
I believe it was written for many types,bbc,acorn,amiga ect so I would have thought it would have been written for an Atari.
Yes and it does come on floppy disk, even the newer programs.
It has been tinkered with so much that it has lost the essence of what made it so unique and useful in the first place.
The editor of Odds On magazine(also owner of Profile software)told me that when I questioned the wisdom of his tinkering with Profile he told me that to try to get it more accurate it ended up more user friendly but less good at finding winners and ProPunter was the exact same, and if I had an older copy of ProPunter never,never throw it away or dicard the old computer it ran on as it was gold.

Ive got that in the loft somewhere and the atari 1040ste to run it on.

now i think back it was a lot of data inputing very similar to vdw.

hi bio,
Sorry i should have said win prizemoney by starts in those type of races.The good authority part is only my opinion of course & i dont mind you asking at all he was known as macintosh of sedbergh to the readership of the raceform update in the mid 90`s and who i later found through correspondence to be a thoroughly decent bloke to boot.

Good posts from bio/Robert re last 2f
A much neglected part of VDW
A list of potential Card Markers would be a good Idea.
Pity we havent all got broadband
I could possibly supply video's of all handicaps re A private website
as I record the last 3f of all Handicaps every day straight to my hard drive
Well all meetings except leicester

[This message was edited by boozer on April 26, 2003 at 12:58 PM.]