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<Fulham>
Posted
JIB


re Roushayd, you wrote: "As it was his last example .." There were exactly 12 later ones. VDW may well have been very ill at the time of the Roushayd race, but he clearly perked up as he was still writing eight years later.
 
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The Vital Spark
Member
Picture of john in brasil
Posted
    Fulham,
    it took me a while to find my original posts on this matter (p74) and I have been rereading them and their responses.
    Whilst I stand corrected as to the existance of further articles, that fact tends to reinforce the fact that vdw did not publically renounce the Roushayd Method only the title of article that was given to it (Systematic Betting) which according to our correspondents he felt was not an accurate representation of the booklets contents.
    I found rereading pages 70 -90 refreshing, if you havent done so recently give it a go. Am I wrong in feeling that as much as I sin, I am sinned against?
 
Posts: 4717 | Registered: February 10, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted
Thanks JIB; I am looking to find out more about him.
Do you or any one else have any of the answers to the following?

A, what was his real name?

B. Were was he born, town?

Was he married, and if so was his wife English or Dutch, where did she come from, country, town?

Thanks any one.
 
Posts: 685 | Registered: June 16, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Jolly Swagman
Member
Picture of Tuppenycat
Posted
quote:
Forward to "Systematic Betting by VDW"- by Tony Peach

One of the questions that I am always being asked is whether C.Van Der Wheil is a real person or just a newspapermans fantasy.

I suppose I could say quite honestly, that as far as I am concerned "The Flying Dutchman" is a bit of both !

He is certainly a man of flesh and bones, although even he must have had his doubts when he arrived all tattered and torn in England from Holland at a time when all this country could think about was "Thank God the 2nd World war with Germany is over at last."

But such was the consideration shown by our doctors and nurses that he survived and though his experiences left him somewhat tacturn and reserved, he could not disguise the fact that in spelling out the facts and figures on how to wager on horse-racing, he had something special to offer. So, yes I would be prepared to say that Van Der Wheil`s contributions to Raceform`s Sports Forum have been a success even beyond my wildest fantasy.

I have spent many hours in conversation with Van Der Vheil and always respected his confidences and honoured his anonymity. As a result Raceform readers are now in for a treat in the shape of "Systematic Betting."

 
Posts: 2360 | Registered: June 17, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Jolly Swagman
Member
Picture of Tuppenycat
Posted
quote:
VDW life (closing pages)

IT is understandable that the young Che Van der Wheil should have made racing pay.
But in fact he made it pay TWICE.
Bom in Rotterdam, his family had many friends in the 'horsey' set and as a result, he
soon became interested in travelling over in the early Thirties from Holland to England
with a group of companions in readiness for the opening handicap at Lincoln's Car-
|holme, and then they would cany on to Newmarket, making their base at the nearby
Bury St Edmunds.
Why to England? Because there was a lot more action over here in those days.
Looking back at those times, it is obvious that Mr Van der Wheil travelled in fairly
affluent circles. But the Second World War changed all that, and pretty drastically too.

As a member of the Free Dutch Forces, the end of the war saw him recuperating and
penniless in Britain, facing the mammoth job of trying to earn a living and trying to
trace the remnants of his family back in Holland.
During his convalescence, he received half-a-crown a week. To younger readers that
is now the equivalent of 12 l/2p!

He became friendly with a male nurse who used to be a bookies' runner. It revived
his interest in racing and the half-crown was put on a horse that won. More success
followed and eventually and for the second time in his life VDW made racing pay.
But he has never classed himself as a professional backer.

This is what he told me:

I have never bet in what I consider big money. Four figures perhaps, but neverall in one Book. END VDW

THE AFTERMATH
(
Mr Van der Wheil has now retired from racing. But he still makes frequent visits
abroad, quite often to friends in the West Indies. All paid for by that half-a-crown bet
made almost 50 years ago!
I am indebted to him for this article given as a gift and I am sure that all his Sports
Forum friends will be delighted to know that I will be sending him a copy of the
finished book, along with all our good wishes for many more years happy retirement.
But I cannot let the book go without a final word from VDW:
This is what he wrote:

I HAVE thoroughly enjoyed the many years racing and can look back on lasting
memories of a complete life within a life that the sport provides. Memories of owners, trainers and jockeys, great races, events and friendships, but most of all the horses.
To single out one or two would be an injustice to the many hundreds that
endeared themselves to me. Obviously the monetary returns amassed must
play a great part having provided a lifestyle few are fortunate to enjoy. >r
If, in trying to put something back, just one person feels they have gained from my efforts, all has been worthwhile. Very few really make it punting, but the fact remains anybody could. Tools for the job can be provided, tuition inusing them can be given, but temperament is down to the individual. END
VDW


 
Posts: 2360 | Registered: June 17, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted
Thanks Tup, I did get the book and read that part.
What I had considered doing, if I could get any answers to my first questions. Was to find if he had made any contributions in the Dutch racing press or of any reference to him before he came to England.
May be if there is any Dutch references then perhaps there are futher clues to his methods.
Just a thought.
 
Posts: 685 | Registered: June 16, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Jolly Swagman
Member
Picture of Tuppenycat
Posted
quote:
Before I write another word, I must emphasise that I have never written under the
name of Che Van der Wheil. I have never met the man, but I am sure as anyone could
be that VDW's genuineness is beyond reproach.
I have found through continuous telephone conversations with countless readers, that
one can usually plumb the depths of the authenticity at the other end of the line. My
maxim has always been that confidence men have to have good memories and that
there is always a word or explanation, here or there, which doesn't ring true.
But one has to marvel at the way VDW was so accurate in his assessment of winners.
Again after many years of thinking and discussing the various articles he has written I
have come to the conclusion that one of the drawbacks of his methods is that they were
written by a man whose racing expertise dwarfed the newcomer to racing, and was
several rungs higher than the steps the likes of myself and most readers have climbed.
There is a mystery about him, of course, and to some extent that is because the
Sports Forum "information line" has never fathomed out his identity.
Over the years, if I ever wanted any gen on a system, I would put a paragraph in
Sports Forum and invariably I got a lead on it.
The only time this really failed was when I wanted to get in touch with Stewart
Simpson, whose book "Always Back Winners" had caught readers' imagination but I
drew a blank.
And I had followed several leads, for I was anxious for him to write for the page. So
I had to rue the fact that when he had rung me, while his book was being reviewed and
asked if there was any work going, I had had to say no, as we were on a tight budget at
the time.
Readers will remember that in Racing In My System, I mentioned that there was a a
paragraph that was worth a second perusal, for to my mind it carried a wealth of
meaning.
The words I am referring to were:
"The only things I know of which come for nothing are a smile,
a hug and a kind word. Indeed, none have any value until they
are actually given away".
I thought it was a strange allegory to be thrown away in a article really devoted to
racing. And one of the first things he made quite clear when he agreed to write for
Sports Forum was that he would not get involved in any slanging match.
I believed at the time that much of this was to do with the fact that he had been a
member of the Free Dutch Forces and had arrived in England penniless and hardly
wearing a stitch of clothing, but had been given a helping hand when most needed.
That deduction was a correct to a degree, I am sure, but I also now know that what he
had suffered while in the Free Dutch Forces was even more reason for his use of those
words I am referring to.
Those people who I have spoken to about VDWs articles will recall that when I was
asked whether VDW would write another book, they received a guarded answer. The
reason for that was that I was not sure whether I ought to ask him to do so.
One had to remember that VDW himself was gaining nothing by doing so, he had
put his money's worth into Sports Forum alone and his book "Systematic Betting"
which he wrote for the firm when it was taken over by Raceform had earned good
money for them. And then of course, he had written countless items for me, free of
charge.
But all that wasn't the real reason. As I have already mentioned, I found interviewing
Van der Wheil very difficult, and on several occasions I asked him something quite
innocently and a normal question for a journalist, and his voice would suddenly fade
away. He obviously found it hard to continue to talk. I consequently, always gave a
hurried apology, although I did not know what for, and quickly put down the telephone.

 
Posts: 2360 | Registered: June 17, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Jolly Swagman
Member
Picture of Tuppenycat
Posted
quote:
I knew of course, that he often travelled to America for treatment of some kind. I
suspected it was to have a break from his work-load and to enjoy better weather, for I
also knew he did not spend much of the winter in England.
But on an afternoon in the early 1990's I rang him over a racing matter and when that
was finished I asked if he would write another book. He asked what about, and I said I
would love to visit him and write a book about his life in racing, and I then realised that
he was having difficulty talking.
But he managed to tell me that he had been asked to fly back to Holland during the
Second World War and had agreed and had been dropped in the occupied territory of
Holland, but had eventually been caught.
Then he shocked me by saying, in a voice that had become quite agitated and
unsteady that he had been taken to a concentration camp and named it.
I think he said it was Auschwitz and it is one of the camps the Dutch were
transported to, but I am not too sure, because I stammered my apologies, put down the
phone and walked back stunned to my desk, realising that he was still experiencing the
awful feelings of being interrogated nearly 50 years after it had happened. I didn't write
any of the conversation down.
I did not tell anyone in the office, and I never did tell anyone else except my wife,

 
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The Vital Spark
Member
Picture of john in brasil
Posted
I wonder which of the Dutch West Indies he visited. Could it be that hes just over the border from me in Suriname?
 
Posts: 4717 | Registered: February 10, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted
TUP thanks again, the name he has used for his articles are not his real name, so it does not get me much further.

If as is said he was in the resistance then this can posibly be authenticated.
Thanks again.
 
Posts: 685 | Registered: June 16, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Picture of walter pigeon
Posted
Tups,
Thankyou very much for putting up those articles which i have never seen before, i enjoyed reading about the man himself, good on ya!.
 
Posts: 1853 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
<Fulham>
Posted
Warrington

What evidence have you that "Van der Wheil" was not the author's real name?
 
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Picture of walter pigeon
Posted
I`ll put these on this thread as at the moment i think this is where they are are best suited as i have to say im not impressed with the general co-operation on the vdw threads, in 1997 one corresspondent to r/f/u was kind enough to give a few examples with one or two vdw bets as HE saw them, 1st race discussed was the champion hurdle.

betting forecast; 11/4, istabraq.
consistency; 3, istabraq.
ability/class; 236, istabraq.
highest class; 341, istabraq.

istabraq is super consistent has the highest class rating and has also achieved the highest class win this season.

result istabraq won 3/1.

betting forecast; 7/4, french holly.
consistency; 3; french holly.
ability/class; 54; french holly.
highest class;159; french holly.

french holly is again super consistent, has the highest class rating and has also achieved the highest class win this season.

result french holly won 2/1.

He gave other examples concerning handicap races & conditions races, those of you who are lucky enough to have these articles on hand will have benefited from them.

One involved russian music.
The other Monaassib.
 
Posts: 1853 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted
Walter Pigeon
I dont really understand the point. Are you showing cases where the horse was top in all the numerical fields and suggesting that's a prerequisite for a VDW selection? If so, it makes sense but doesn't seem to be the case historically, how often do such opportunities arise?
 
Posts: 3443 | Registered: October 02, 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of walter pigeon
Posted
Epi, these articles were written by classform he wrote in to r/f/u a few times he also wrote about a horse called Stanton Harcourt who won at Newmarket july 19th 1997 trained by John Dunlop, stating this was a roushayd type check him out on the r.p.website.
 
Posts: 1853 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Posted
Walter
Thanks for the further details.
 
Posts: 3443 | Registered: October 02, 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of walter pigeon
Posted
Epi, im only putting up whats in the articles its up to others to decide thier worth, no doubt there will be situations where horses with all these atributes have been beaten for one reason or another, but if the reasons not to bet are hard to find then id certainly be interested, would`nt you? what we need to decide is what constitutes a reasonable degree of uncertainty.
 
Posts: 1853 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted
Food for thought, as Guest would say.
 
Posts: 3443 | Registered: October 02, 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted
Having just read most of the postings on this site about vdw, It comes as no surprise that all these years later confusion still reigns.

Did vdw really exist as a person. Surely the most important thing here is whether the information that was imparted is relevant to finding winners in Horse Racing, no matter by whom.

If we have read vdw's articles as we all claim to have done, then we should know if he was a heavy bettor.

Are the above paragraphs really relevant to finding winners?

The strike rate that was "acheived", was this really that extraordinary?. Well, if one looks at how many methods that vdw had in his armoury, then in my opinion, no.

The word TEMPERAMENT, is this also being misinterpreted as were some earlier examples that he gave, this is where most fail "of that there can be no doubt".

Soaf was given in an earlier posting in this thread as an excellent vdw example, these types come along more frequently than one could imagine, particularly in Group races, along with the Roushayd types, and the two to three year old method that was given to us.

I have read recent articles elsewhere that vdw did not wager in the early part of the flat season, this of course was clearly not the case as most of us know, but it does serve to show how we all interpret things differently.

The same can be said for any race that is analysed using vdw methodology, INTERPRETATION will nearly always vary, WHY??, because of compromise, which in turn will always lead to frustration.

I have also read on this thread about Prominent King in regards to weight, in my experience "weight is a very important factor", a trainer will always use this as an advantage whenever he/she can, and it is up to us to spot these "FACTS".

I also cannot see why a short price "good thing" should never be taken, this of course is down to individual choice, however, when the "facts" are dealt with in the same manner (Temperament) as other races are analysed, and no wager is struck, then I can see no point in using vdw methodology.

Lastly, why is it that Guest is getting criticised from certain quarters for sharing his views in trying to help!!!!!!. Rightly or wrongly his interpretations and views are there for all to see and share, after all is he the only one amongst us who puts his money on losers?.

These are only my personal views that have stood me in good stead over many years, and no offence should be taken by them.

"r"
 
Posts: 546 | Registered: February 09, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted
Pipedreamer
Thanks for a good and thoughtful post. As you posted it on the questions thread I'll venture an answer. The main reason that Guest comes in for criticism is because his self presentation is poor, he comes across as extrememly arrogant. This is how the first sentence of his first post began: "Without wishing to rock too many boats (or cradles)", for a considerable time after this Guest posted nothing worthwhile, basically repeating meaningless remarks about "hidden factors". Eventually Guest did post some interesting stuff, from among 450 posts there are a handfull worth reading, but by then the tone had been set so that even now most of the 'discussion' is conducted in terms so vague as to be virtually pointless, for this Guest is directly to blame. Guest himself has said that he's thick skinned enough to take the "criticism" and I imagine he would have to be if this is the style in which he generally conducts himself.
 
Posts: 3443 | Registered: October 02, 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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