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quote:
Originally posted by boozer:
Heres a bit of Voegles Horse Sense
The book is actualy By a bloke called Paul Major
A uk adaptation of Voegles professional method of winner selection



Let me give you an example from one season:
I noticed that, though Homefield had run second twice, being beaten only a neck in a handicap in his previous race, he was allowed to start 4-1 in a field of four for an apprentice race at Doncaster when carrying less than seven stone. He won by five lengths.
Homefield then ran third on a higher-grade track but, when he returned to a moderate race at a poor northern meeting, starting at 5"”2, he won by five lengths.
Now he goes for a good price at Ayr. It's a fair field. But this consistent animal gets weight all round. Eight runners. A perfect each-way bet at, guess what, 14"”1. He won by five lengths.

Surely the public knew that, whatever their prejudice, they were losing money opposing Homefield.
Yet dropped to a £500 race at Catterick, Homefield was permitted to step down to the start a 5"”2 shot. He won by two-and-a-half lengths.
Where were all those punters?
Surely now the Homefield run must come to an end? Well, it looked that way when his trainer aimed sky high at the Good-wood Stakes next time out. Sure enough, though Homefield led for a long way (as he liked to do), he had no answer to Pamroy's final-furlong challenge. He finished a respectable fourth.
That was it then I The punters knew a good honest handicapper when they saw one, didn't they? Beaten in a big race, but not disgraced, after a fine display of consistency... Homefield had made it hadn't he? He'd neverbe allowed to start at value odds again in a handicap in the North.
Oh! Wouldn't he! Oh! British Punters, where were you?
You had it all there in the formbooks, all this information about the gallant Homefield, yet he went to Thirsk, in his very next race after Goodwood, with just 7st. 91b. to carry "” one of the bottomweights on a low-grade track "” and you let him start at 6"”1.
Homefield didn't just win. He made all the running. Every yard of it. So he deserved to. . . on form. I made him 7"”4 in my own betting forecast. And I made the other punters pay for their error. . . for they paid me through the bookmakers!
Remember! You can't beat the bookmaker. But you can beat the other punters. Many, many times.
By now you've digested some important principles of my method of winning money from betting. We are almost ready to go into detail.
But I must stress the other lesson to be learned from the Homefield story. Read your form books. Read the facts. Read between the lines. Translate them to fit the approach of the new, improved you, the new'professional approach which is gradually taking over from the gambler within you as you read this book.
It's hard work digging up form. One of your most successful bookmakers, William Hill, reckoned to spend six hours a day in form study.
The average punter in America has his Daily Racing Form chart for each race giving the exact placings of every horse at the quarter, half and threequarter distances as well as positions in the finishing stretch and at the fin ish~ To complete the picture, the distances between the runners at each stage are indicated, the winning time is given, and the performances of all the main contenders is put into close-up. All th'at for each horse's last eight races.
With information of this sort at his elbow, the American backer can come to fairly quick conclusions. It is relatively easy to spot the horses in form, out of form, the triers and the non-triers, the battlers and the cowards.


Boozer
Thanks for that.
All good, simple, and sensible stuff, but nothing like the depth of SIAO, the Roushayd example, or even Desert Orchid for that matter.
The guy was obviously aware of the importance of class but, on the limited evidence available, ignores, or is unaware of, what many VDW'ers would regard as fundamentals.
To say VDW copied from this is a bit like saying the Wright Brothers copied from Icarus ain't it? Big Grin
 
Posts: 2347 | Registered: August 20, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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JD,
There was more to it, will look it out and post more up if its no too long winded.
 
Posts: 7080 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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The Method

1.Class-5000 race sample
4685 ran in same class or lower 93.7%
315 ran in higher class than last race 6.3%


2.Weight-5000 races
3415 carried same or less weight as in last race 68.3%
1585 carried more weight than in last race but of the 1585 31.7%
845 carried more weight but were dropped in class
740 carried more weight in same or higher class


3.Distance-5000 races
2965 ran same distance as last race 59.3%
1235 ran longer distance 24.7%
800 ran shorter distance 16.0%


4. Finish in last race-5000 races
3080 finished in first three or made up ground 61.6%
in the final stages of the race


5.Odds-5000 races
3610 were amongst the first three favourites 72.2%
in the betting

He then goes on to explain class of racetracks etc which are a wee bit outdated as Teeside and Lanark are mentioned.
 
Posts: 7080 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I gave the above to wee Aussie pal of mine who`s in his 70`s a few years back, he seemed to cotton on pretty quickly but he never telt me, jist laughed , he`s promised me some stuff when he pops his cloggs, says im no ready the noo.
 
Posts: 7080 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Jedi Knight
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WP - very interesting statistics.

The stat that jumps out at me is more winners were going up in distance than going down. I'm surprised about that.

The other particularly interesting figure is how few winners were being raised in class. Obviously, 'same class' & 'drop in class' should result in more winners. But only 6.3% in 'higher class' - that does seem a very small percentage.

It would be interesting to see whether these stats agree with the findings of others, wouldn't it.

BC Smile
 
Posts: 2316 | Registered: May 04, 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Id imagine they would fluctuate BC.
For those interested you will find 8 copies available of Voegeles book here.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3...ce+voegele&x=14&y=17
 
Posts: 7080 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Rab
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Are they stats from over 30 yrs ago?
 
Posts: 2960 | Registered: August 21, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Early 70`s Rab.
 
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Rab
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Ta Walt

Anyone think racing and its methods have moved on since then?
 
Posts: 2960 | Registered: August 21, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Maybe the factors are more important i dont know?, anyone have a modern take on them percentage wise?.
 
Posts: 7080 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
The stat that jumps out at me is more winners were going up in distance than going down. I'm surprised about that.

BC are you reading it right or is it me, i take it he`s meaning that 1235 ran longer distance lto than today?.
 
Posts: 7080 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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BC

He used racourses in groups rather than prizemoney as class indicater

Example although extreme Ascot to Warwick = drop in class
All those years back I and the wife started to map out previous years formbooks with the Racecourse group written over the top of the betting forecast of the first 6 in the betting (LTO run)
After further studying the results it became apparent that prizemoney LTO was the better indicater.

We went on to do a full previous 5 years worth of Flat race form books with the LTO Race value written over the top of the first 6 in the betting forecast.

Tis a good excersise and an eyeopener
especially when you study the ones that are say 3 times or more the value of the others in the forecast.the ones that win the ones that lose

One particular flat year made a 200 point LSp by backing will nilly as above when there was just one in the forcast with the 3 times the prizemoney rule

IT was a fluke though



In those days no one ever mentioned the words drop in class
I can remember cursing when VDW appeared splashing similar stuff over the back page of the Handicap Book.
 
Posts: 803 | Registered: August 19, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Jedi Knight
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quote:
Originally posted by walter pigeon:
quote:
The stat that jumps out at me is more winners were going up in distance than going down. I'm surprised about that.

BC are you reading it right or is it me, i take it he`s meaning that 1235 ran longer distance lto than today?.


I think so WP.

1,235 up in distance, but only 800 down in distance.
EDIT: BC got it WRONG - 1235 were down in distance; 800 were up in distance

(I realise there were 2,965 running same distance).

The reason I am surprised is that I would have thought it was more usual for a horse to run over longer to improve its stamina, that to be run over shorter to improve its speed. Just my thoughts...
EDIT: It would appear that thought is correct then!

Cheers for the Amazon ref - I've just nabbed one.

BC Smile

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BlackCat,
 
Posts: 2316 | Registered: May 04, 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Jedi Knight
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quote:
became apparent that prizemoney LTO was the better indicater.

We went on to do a full previous 5 years worth of Flat race form books with the LTO Race value written over the top of the first 6 in the betting forecast.

Tis a good excersise and an eyeopener
especially when you study the ones that are say 3 times or more the value of the others in the forecast.the ones that win the ones that lose


Hi Boozer,

You've reminded me of something, so I've just dug it out. Investor was very keen on race values too. He said:

1. Selection must be top 3 AR LTO
2. Selection's AR should be 40+, and 20+ clear of nearest rival
3. Must have won most valuable race of all runners

Better go and do some work now I suppose. Frown

BC Smile
 
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Hi Walter

You are quite right. Just double-checked. I was reading it wrong. Nothing new there then eh?!

Thanks for pointing it out.

BC Big Grin
 
Posts: 2316 | Registered: May 04, 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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read peach note from NUMBERS GAME FORM A PICTURE and method 4 from your book wattie ,well well well
 
Posts: 2353 | Registered: July 25, 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Thank fk for that, im confused enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYeRhmyaCg
 
Posts: 7080 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
The Vital Spark
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I have these books and have found them extremely useful.

However modern handicaps have a much more compressed weight range so the opportunities to explore large saddleweight variations seldom now exist.

On the otherhand the universality of the OR has made the evaluation of class far simpler and more accurate. So whilst one change has closed some doors the other has thrown open others.

If you understand that these raters of a generation ago were successfully exploiting differences in class then one only has to adapt to modern conditions to do the same.
 
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Are you referring to OR ranges oppossed to Penalty values John?.
 
Posts: 7080 | Registered: August 27, 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Late in replying, I was at the hospital yesterday. No it wasn't the mental hospital, and i didn't see poor old Investor!

Black Cat,
Well done with 50% strike rate. That's the minimum needed at those prices, I'd say.
I hope you've identified the decisive factor; it seems deciding correctly whether to go in or no is what's helping your method.


----

Re the mirrors;

Neptune (Close 3rd to KS in Gold Cup) is out tomorrow at Punchestown.

---

Re Google; don't!

SCROOGLE instead. You'll get the same results but without all the crap.
 
Posts: 482 | Registered: January 15, 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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